immune itmes ? why ?

[epelite]

i see more and more items on the server that gives immune to difrent things.. i will strongly sugest that they should be removed. my and Magius have played on quait a few servers that used itmes like that.

1. immune itmes makes some classes overpowered. take a fighter-barbar-rogue-druid that now can be immune to mind spells, immune to negative energy and level drain, and immune to all kinds of magic missiles.. what dose they have to fear now. only need an item that makes them immune to death spells and knockdown and they are as good at immortal

2.itmes like this will lead to an abuse of the items like swap itmes mid fight. iv seen it manny times on other servers.

3.but the worse thing.. and iv seen this on every server that got immune itmes. the RP stops when you get higher level. there is no need for a fighter for example, to find a party he can now do everything alone. why would he take a wizzard or a cleric along and split all the loot in two, if he can do it alone.?

4.i know a few players that wont come back to the server befor the immune itmes is gone. so i hope you will take this up as fast as you can.

Rose...

[kalbaern]

1. immune itmes makes some classes overpowered. take a fighter-barbar-rogue-druid that now can be immune to mind spells, immune to negative energy and level drain, and immune to all kinds of magic missiles.. what dose they have to fear now. only need an item that makes them immune to death spells and knockdown and they are as good at immortal
- The same could easilly be said of most casters at high levels.

2.itmes like this will lead to an abuse of the items like swap itmes mid fight. iv seen it manny times on other servers.
- This would clearly be a case of a player using a mechanical exploit then. If/when caught, they'll be dealt with.

3.but the worse thing.. and iv seen this on every server that got immune itmes. the RP stops when you get higher level. there is no need for a fighter for example, to find a party he can now do everything alone. why would he take a wizzard or a cleric along and split all the loot in two, if he can do it alone.?
- I vehemently disagree. RP stops at any level more often due to the player inherently being a soloer and powergamer. Further, no one PC can ever "do it all". Here we also purposely design areas so that while they do not directly penalise solers, they certainly will favor a rounded group.

4.i know a few players that wont come back to the server befor the immune itmes is gone. so i hope you will take this up as fast as you can.
- Is this a threat ... blackmail? If you know "other players" that feel this way then you should tell them to PM me or post their concerns for all to discuss. A discussion of each item in question would be better recieved than "threats" though.

[epelite]

[4.i know a few players that wont come back to the server befor the immune itmes is gone. so i hope you will take this up as fast as you can.
- Is this a threat ... blackmail? If you know "other players" that feel this way then you should tell them to PM me or post their concerns for all to discuss. A discussion of each item in question would be better recieved than "threats" though.]

this is in no way a threat or any form of blackmail.
this is just me telling what i was told by other players.
and i did tell them to PM you or post it here.

and i do hope that they and others will post what they feel about immune itmes.

[Possibly Ten]

I have talked about this as well with a certain family member of yours "Rose", and while I think that his concerns are legit ones, I also think that they are based mainly on PvP. I personally consider him one of my friends, and I doubt he would be overly upset at me for saying all this anyway.

The only real argument that exists against certain immunity items, and there are very very few immunity items IG, is one of PvP, not PvM. The items themselves are, for the most part, insanely expensive, and the odds of any mage running across a 20+ level fighter that happens to have one is very low.

That being said, I am not against having them "nerfed". I can see them providing immunity for a short duration, instead of constant.

Having said all this, there has only been one person that has complained me IG about this topic. If there are truly others that won't come back due to this, I find that hard to believe. While the person that complained to me IG about this does have valid points, he is tired of NWN, and honestly, I find that the immunity items is an easier way than "starting over", his words, on another world.


If Magius disagrees, tell him to hit me up on MSN, I will talk to him.

[slothfulcat]

I'll actually agree that the immunity items are over-powered... particularly the ones with freedom, these are the cheapest and the most potent as it removes the need for most forms of mind protection or will saves, and ensures that dexterity based PCs wont loose their bonuses to AC and such.

[magius]

im just saying.. if you guys realy wants immun items.. atleast let it be a ''thing'' carfted by gathering hard things hundred of thousands of gold.. and a dm to inspect it not to be overpowered.. as you say your self in your post..

sure and i aint blameing you for that.. i just know.. i wouldnt care crap about the cost for a immun item.. if i thought it needet.. i would gladly pay a million gold for a greater/lesser/magical missle immun cloak
put that on a cleric mate.. and i know im speaking mostly about pvp.. but as i see forgotten realm as a place where murder is allowed due to the books and the world it self.. Pvp is a great thing among FR

rue i know i aint around much.. and mate thats because of such items.. i dont want to waste time playing on a server i then find when im getting higher lvl wont remove items i belive to be imbalanced to play with
i left many servers where i played because they suddenly made such items.. as immun to knockdown and mind.

And it has nothing to do with im against your beliefs and all kevin.. its how i feel about such items...

PS.. these words might be a bit confuseing i was talking with teneas about it.. and just copied it from msn..

And another thing i see in being able to buy them from stores is.. you can actully make your ''class'' to match well with your items to make you even more imbalanced


Like for instanse.. if you know.. hey i can buy a immun to knockdown item.. why the hell should i then waste skill points in Decressig the chance for that..

[magius]

and i dont mean to creat any hostile tension.. its just how i feel and you feel diffrent :/ but what ye gonna do.. i find the server to be awesome made.. and i like the place.. of course there will always be diffrent belives.. but atleast you know mine now.. im not much of a Forum user.. and i usely just talk directly to the persons

[DavrosMandrake]

To cut into this debate I would just like to say that I don't see what the problem with this.

Ok I am surprised that Kevin has not already nerfed these items to only give effect for limited times and uses per day. I am not surprised that these things cost a lot of money (but then money is so hard to come by that cant be a problem)

Someone asked why buy knockdown when you could get an item that does it. Simple answer, for role-playing!

All this debate over 'what items do' and 'I cant play on that server because they have that item' is a bit alien to me. First of all its meta gaming (a real peeve) and from what I can tell from these posts is that the real bugbear here is that it makes things unfair in PVP.

Last time I looked this was actually a Role-Play server and although it allows PVP that is not the environment it is meant to represent. If this was a server where PVP was the norm then I would not be here at all.

Items however can be taken away, especially in a DM environment. As an example I ran a table-top (Pen and Paper) game for a player who's character was so good with a bow there was not much he could not do. All of his spells and abilities were geared around the bow.

So I broke his fingers.

He was fairly happy that his character did have some other skills and more depth that he could survive it and get to a healer (i.e He had 'wasted' his points on Knockdown when he could just have got an item/spell)

[kalbaern]

- There should be no items with immunity to knockdown. If there are, point them out so we can remedy it.

- The belts that granted freedom were replaced with belts allowing the PC to cast it as a spell instead a good while ago.

- Items that grant immunity to one special spell spell or type of spells shouldn't be a big issue. They do not come cheaply here especially with our economy model. A fighter wearing a belt to protect him from a mage spamming magic missile or one of the IGM spells is giving up a chance to boost strength or dexterity likely. A mage that only prepares one certain type of offensive spell(s) is setting him/herself up for failure whether adventuring in general or in PvP.

- As addressed previously, a player swapping items like belts, boots, cloaks, gloves or whatever in combat is using an exploit. Despite posting our views on "exploits" folk use them here and elsewhere. I can only say when we catch these players they'll be dealt with.

- Many folk have complained about "PvP" this or that. Yet, we've only had one PvP incident and the player starting it left the server because unlike many PWs we actually expect folk to accept the consequences of their actions. PvP here requires a DM to observe it. We do this so that we don't later have to deal with the "He said, she saids" that almost always occure afterwards. If all parties agree to PvP without a DM present ... that's fine. Nothing will be done by us when one or more players complain about the outcome in these cases either. So get a DM to observe and not have to worry over it.

- If you're worried some asshat will come along and just target folk for PvP randomly, well ... that could occure regardless of any of your posted concerns. Such folk will simply be banned in the end.


Now I'll be abit silly.

Should we remove all spiders and other insects and vermin from the module since they are also immune to mind affecting spells?

Should we ban players from choosing neutral alignments for much the same reason?

Should we ban paladins because they are immune to fear effects?

Should we ban elves because they are immune to sleep?

I could go on and on, and I know these are silly questions. But, in the end many such things point to a single issue whether directly voiced or not. Folk in general do not "trust" that DMs and Admins will stick to their promises and look for ways to "protect" themselves from asshats instead.

Most of our rules, spell tweaks, class restrictions, etc... are aimed at limiting cases of abuse. When that fails, DMs and Admins step in. Attracting and recruiting mature players is the most crucial thing for any PW though in the long run.

[DM Arsescratcher]

My only real concern is that players will swap between items mid-fight.

I know another player on certain other server who swaps boots mid-battle to use a 1/day power on them then swaps back to his original boots. This is behaviour in need of a good kicking IMO.

Can something be specifically added to the rules to cover this?

I suggest formal warning on first occurance, item to be confiscated from player on second infringement.

The immunity to stat/level drain items are underpriced IMO, but that's the only other concern I have with this.

If the situation does get so bad that players are soloing because of immunities on their items then that will be dealt with at that point. For now, just go with the flow, if you don't like immunity items, don't buy them. If it becomes a problem for the server, rest assured we will deal with it.

[magius]

true enough all you said.. i just gave my opinion.. and realted to other ''RP'' servers where it was done.. and those server sucked..

and was just how i feel about it..... non the less.. ask your self.. DO you only want to PVE... for if you do.. Forgotten realms.. is not a server you shoudl play on... i have not read one forgoten realm were i dont read over half the pages of people attacking or dueling or murdering each other... im just trying to make the Forgotten realm server as real as possible.

now you may say.. yes but in forgotten realm there is these items aswell... yes there is... But they are HIghly unlikely to come across... they are normaly items carfted in cormanthor or Nethrill.. witch was why i asked that if you wont remove them from ''shops'' atleast let it be Dm finds..

[kalbaern]

Oct 6, 2009 12:11:04 GMT -5 DM Arsescratcher said:

My only real concern is that players will swap between items mid-fight.

I know another player on certain other server who swaps boots mid-battle to use a 1/day power on them then swaps back to his original boots. This is behaviour in need of a good kicking IMO.

Can something be specifically added to the rules to cover this?

I suggest formal warning on first occurance, item to be confiscated from player on second infringement.

The immunity to stat/level drain items are underpriced IMO, but that's the only other concern I have with this.

If the situation does get so bad that players are soloing because of immunities on their items then that will be dealt with at that point. For now, just go with the flow, if you don't like immunity items, don't buy them. If it becomes a problem for the server, rest assured we will deal with it.

I'll add swapping such items in combat as a "clear" exploit even though our current rules cover it as exploiting of game mechanics.

We need to also test our "stop stop scripts" as regards this. Currently, swapping any item and not just a weapon should fire them ... though only within melee range I think. Can someone test and confirm for me?

[Possibly Ten]

Pretty positive that it is impossible to swap items out when in combat here, besides weapons, I have tried before to merely get my armor on once, and wouldn't work. Am doing something with some players IG now will have one of em test it once I care to really have my presence known. *evil grin*

[kalbaern]

Oct 6, 2009 12:54:43 GMT -5 Possibly Ten said:

Pretty positive that it is impossible to swap items out when in combat here, besides weapons, I have tried before to merely get my armor on once, and wouldn't work. Am doing something with some players IG now will have one of em test it once I care to really have my presence known. *evil grin*

Armor swapping is disallowed as a hard coded feature of the game itself when you are in combat regardless of your range to a hostile target. (Much as resting is broken and disarming traps goes from a "take 20" to a penalty when someone nearby whacks a locked object while you are disarming something. *mutters something under his breath about Quendros* )

[strangelander]

Oct 6, 2009 10:09:30 GMT -5 magius said:

Like for instanse.. if you know.. hey i can buy a immun to knockdown item.. why the hell should i then waste skill points in Decressig the chance for that..

Hmm... I can think of several uses for skill: Discipline other than just to stand against knockdown-attempts... but then this sounds more like item-envy or item-availability-envy than a true concern over a specific immunity being present.

A different angle on the topic to consider would be that class-balancing through items and item availability is a rather easy way to enact just that, what with the game being what it is and all the caveats that come with it.