Post by kalbaern on Dec 7, 2009 14:59:55 GMT -5
Before I go into a lengthy dissertation here, let me explain some of the criteria we use here when it comes to additions/changes/rules/scripts.
1) Does it mandate a DM to be involved. If YES, then it's likely not easilly implemented and due to timezones and availability some players may simply have a harder time getting DMs to help them in a timely manner.
2) Does it create lag that is measureably greater than whatever effect is gained is worth?
3) Does it conflict with or follow our adopted Forgotten Realm's Source Books?
4) Does it favor or disadvantage one race, class, etc... unfairly?
5) Does it open up possible exploits within the game mechanics?
So having stated the above I'll now address some specific issues.
SPELL SHARING: This is something that is commonly asked for here. "Spell Sharing" is where a buff applied by a caster to his/herself is also shared by their companions/familiars. The problem with this PnP idea that everyone wants is implementing it as per PnP. What most ignore is that the creatures protected cannot move beyond arms length from their masters. If they do, the protections are gone and even if they come back, they are not reapplied.
Making these spells work as per PnP is actually possible, but would also bug them and cause them to fail alot. "Shared" spells would have to be restripted to work as a moving AoE. This means alot of lag firstly, Secondly, AoEs that follow a PC are prone to getting broke by simply moving. They are in essense a "spell that follows" the PC and not something on the PC. The fact that AoEs are "objects" that constantly "jump" around to follow their creator is why they often fail when you transition or move around rapidly in an area with alot of foes or terrain and placeable obstructions. So even though many spells could be rewritten so the are "shared" ... I guarantee you all would scream when your past reliable buffs started failing because of the way the game implements all moving AoE effects.
A few players have counter with "They do it over on server *X*". No, they don't. I've actually checked many of the servers where folk claim this. The effect is "shared", but no means to remove the buffs are applied when the caster lets it's buffed friend loose on a hoard of enemies and stands behind safely and collects XP and loot with no personal effort either. These servers version of "sharing" is just "free buffs" for companions/familiars and not even close to duplicating the spirit of the PnP version of this effect.
Familiars and Companions in general: In NWN your familiars and companions are far more powerful than in PnP already. There's also not a DM staring across a table at you to "control" your friend either. Most fail to take into account that in PnP both familiars and companions are NPCs. NPCs that a DM should be controlling, not the players. This is so that interactions and RP can occure.
MAGE to his Imp: "Go down that hall and peek around the corner and then report back"
DM as Imp: "Do I have too master?"
MAGE to his Imp: "Go and do as I say ... Now!"
DM as DM: *rolls some dice behind his/her screen and considers the fact that the last 4 hallways the imp has checked have had traps that injured it*
DM as Imp: "No master ... they used nasty traps here ... I no wanna get hurt more"
DM as DM: "Your familiar cowers in the corner rubbing a recent scar left from a fire trap and does not budge".
Mage: *mutters and makes a quiet comment about someone else bringing the d**ned pizza and pop to next weeks game then*
This could go on and on with the player and DM likely making a few skill rolls to see if the cowering imp can yet be convinced to do this task for it's master. But a good DM would make the player of the mage work it out IC and convince the imp to obey. The point is, that both familiars and companions will not suffer abuses constantly.
Yes, NWN is not PnP is a common reply from disgruntled players. They are correct. NWN is not PnP, but here at "The Savage Frontier and Surrounds" we use NWN as a mere tool to capture a PnP atmosphere as best we can. Simply put, this IS NOT ... NWN here. This is "The Savage Frontiers and Surrounds" Campaign where we use the NWN game to have fun and interact with folk literally from around the globe rather than just a handful of friends around a table on a Tuesday night.
The game engine does not allow a DM to actually "possess" a familiar or companion. We as DMs do have a few tricks up our sleeves and can affect them in other ways though. We cannot however be here and have a DM assigned to each player that logs in and wishes to use a familiar/companion though. We expect our players to treat their "friends" as if this were a PnP game regardless. All of this and more below is what we considered when we applied the death penalties for familiars and companions here.
Familiars: The short version of the PnP penalties is 200 XP per level dedusted when they die. Level loss is a possibility. Making a save against fortitude when this occures will lower the penalty to 100 xp per level instead. A wizard/sorceror would also have to wait a full year plus one day before they could again attempt to call a new familiar. Raising or resurecting the familiar would negate the waiting period, but does not restore the XP loss. Further, in PnP ... any loss of level does not just rduce your hitpoints, abilities, feats, skills, etc ... it resets your current XP to the midpoint of the new lower level which is a lot harsher penalty than you'll ever see here.
Making a PC wait out a full year IG before they can gain a new familiar is possible, but it's also something that would prove tedious to both players and for DMs to monitor. Even if we used the IG clocks formula of 10 mins RL equals an hour IG ... that'd be roughly two months for a PC to get a new familiar. So we settled on a flat 100 xp per character level as the penalty. No waiting period. No need to have a DM grant you a new familiar. We also realised that this penalty would in many ways "nerf" PC's with familiars. So we created the custom summons here that are overall much better than the old standard ones within NWN.
None of this means you cannot travel with your familiars or have them aid you in combat. It simply means that they are a precious "gift" to wizards and sorcerors and if mistreated, there's a penalty is all. Those that fail to protect them and keep them safe pay a price for it. It's as simple as that here.
Animal Companions: while it is true that in PnP there is no XP penalty when a companion dies, players often overlook a long list of other things pertaining companions.
1) Rangers and druids gain a companion from their "home territories" only. Companions are gained as partly a divine gift and partly as a show of respect to the character by the woodland creatures they serve and protect.
2) Companions when first acquired are wild animals that at best follow the PC out of respect. They only attack to defend themselves and sometimes defend the PC they follow.
3) Time NOT adventuring must be spent to "train" a companion so it'll begin to obey specific commands over time. This can cause weeks if not months to pass IG so a companion can be a useful follower.
4) Though it only requires 24-48 hours of prayer to gain a companion ... uhm ... this needs be done in the woodsman's "home territory" and since it's a divine "gift", recieving a new companion after your old one perishes is never a "given". DMs would have to "grant" the new companion to the PC. That means reviewing the "why" each time as the woodsman's diety is unlikely to grant new companions on a regular basis to a character that does not actually respect them as companions and uses them as mere fodder in a fight constantly.
So lacking a painless and Non-DM required way to impliment the above, we choose here to also apply the same XP penalty as we did for familiars. XP after all is an obscure thing in D&D. It can be considered both a drain of life force when applied as a penalty due to a "wight" or "vampire" attack or as in item crafting represent "time" ... a "time" deduction in XP to represent the time a character must now spend in activities other than adventuring to accomplish a task. So the XP penalty for a companion's death here is used to represent the time and resources and divine involvement of replacing your previous creature is all. You don't have to return to your home woods. You don't have to beg a DM to intercede as a deity and grant you another. You don't have to retrain your new companion. You just take the penalty and move on here. Just as with other classes here, druids and rangers also have a variety of more useful woodland creatures that will answer a "summons" too.
So ... this was the "thought" process involved in adding the death penalties here. This was not mine or anothers mere whim either. Our core group of Admins, DMs, builders, scripters and players were all involved in setting these inplace. We actually started with a 250 xp per level penalty and overtime and testing and DM and player input have lowered it a few times to the current penalty of 100 XP per PC level.
My own mage and druid PCs here have suffered these penalties as much or more than most players. While I admit it "sucks" when it happens, it's also forced me to constantly rethink how I use companions/familiars IG here. In some cases I've adopted new tactics. In many instances I merely keep my "friends" safe and out of combat or simply don't travel with them when I know it'll be far too risky. Sometimes though, despite my best efforts ... "nuts happens". So I take the hit ... sigh and mutter alot ... and then move on.
So whether you all as players agree or disagree with our stance here, hopefully you at least understand the spirit in which these rules/penalties have been added here.
As always, your views and input are welcomed. Just know that in the past year we've yet to have been swayed from our views on this often "heated" topic.
-Kevin- AKA "kalbaern" and the ever evil "DM Fluffy Bunny of Doom"
1) Does it mandate a DM to be involved. If YES, then it's likely not easilly implemented and due to timezones and availability some players may simply have a harder time getting DMs to help them in a timely manner.
2) Does it create lag that is measureably greater than whatever effect is gained is worth?
3) Does it conflict with or follow our adopted Forgotten Realm's Source Books?
4) Does it favor or disadvantage one race, class, etc... unfairly?
5) Does it open up possible exploits within the game mechanics?
So having stated the above I'll now address some specific issues.
SPELL SHARING: This is something that is commonly asked for here. "Spell Sharing" is where a buff applied by a caster to his/herself is also shared by their companions/familiars. The problem with this PnP idea that everyone wants is implementing it as per PnP. What most ignore is that the creatures protected cannot move beyond arms length from their masters. If they do, the protections are gone and even if they come back, they are not reapplied.
Making these spells work as per PnP is actually possible, but would also bug them and cause them to fail alot. "Shared" spells would have to be restripted to work as a moving AoE. This means alot of lag firstly, Secondly, AoEs that follow a PC are prone to getting broke by simply moving. They are in essense a "spell that follows" the PC and not something on the PC. The fact that AoEs are "objects" that constantly "jump" around to follow their creator is why they often fail when you transition or move around rapidly in an area with alot of foes or terrain and placeable obstructions. So even though many spells could be rewritten so the are "shared" ... I guarantee you all would scream when your past reliable buffs started failing because of the way the game implements all moving AoE effects.
A few players have counter with "They do it over on server *X*". No, they don't. I've actually checked many of the servers where folk claim this. The effect is "shared", but no means to remove the buffs are applied when the caster lets it's buffed friend loose on a hoard of enemies and stands behind safely and collects XP and loot with no personal effort either. These servers version of "sharing" is just "free buffs" for companions/familiars and not even close to duplicating the spirit of the PnP version of this effect.
Familiars and Companions in general: In NWN your familiars and companions are far more powerful than in PnP already. There's also not a DM staring across a table at you to "control" your friend either. Most fail to take into account that in PnP both familiars and companions are NPCs. NPCs that a DM should be controlling, not the players. This is so that interactions and RP can occure.
MAGE to his Imp: "Go down that hall and peek around the corner and then report back"
DM as Imp: "Do I have too master?"
MAGE to his Imp: "Go and do as I say ... Now!"
DM as DM: *rolls some dice behind his/her screen and considers the fact that the last 4 hallways the imp has checked have had traps that injured it*
DM as Imp: "No master ... they used nasty traps here ... I no wanna get hurt more"
DM as DM: "Your familiar cowers in the corner rubbing a recent scar left from a fire trap and does not budge".
Mage: *mutters and makes a quiet comment about someone else bringing the d**ned pizza and pop to next weeks game then*
This could go on and on with the player and DM likely making a few skill rolls to see if the cowering imp can yet be convinced to do this task for it's master. But a good DM would make the player of the mage work it out IC and convince the imp to obey. The point is, that both familiars and companions will not suffer abuses constantly.
Yes, NWN is not PnP is a common reply from disgruntled players. They are correct. NWN is not PnP, but here at "The Savage Frontier and Surrounds" we use NWN as a mere tool to capture a PnP atmosphere as best we can. Simply put, this IS NOT ... NWN here. This is "The Savage Frontiers and Surrounds" Campaign where we use the NWN game to have fun and interact with folk literally from around the globe rather than just a handful of friends around a table on a Tuesday night.
The game engine does not allow a DM to actually "possess" a familiar or companion. We as DMs do have a few tricks up our sleeves and can affect them in other ways though. We cannot however be here and have a DM assigned to each player that logs in and wishes to use a familiar/companion though. We expect our players to treat their "friends" as if this were a PnP game regardless. All of this and more below is what we considered when we applied the death penalties for familiars and companions here.
Familiars: The short version of the PnP penalties is 200 XP per level dedusted when they die. Level loss is a possibility. Making a save against fortitude when this occures will lower the penalty to 100 xp per level instead. A wizard/sorceror would also have to wait a full year plus one day before they could again attempt to call a new familiar. Raising or resurecting the familiar would negate the waiting period, but does not restore the XP loss. Further, in PnP ... any loss of level does not just rduce your hitpoints, abilities, feats, skills, etc ... it resets your current XP to the midpoint of the new lower level which is a lot harsher penalty than you'll ever see here.
Making a PC wait out a full year IG before they can gain a new familiar is possible, but it's also something that would prove tedious to both players and for DMs to monitor. Even if we used the IG clocks formula of 10 mins RL equals an hour IG ... that'd be roughly two months for a PC to get a new familiar. So we settled on a flat 100 xp per character level as the penalty. No waiting period. No need to have a DM grant you a new familiar. We also realised that this penalty would in many ways "nerf" PC's with familiars. So we created the custom summons here that are overall much better than the old standard ones within NWN.
None of this means you cannot travel with your familiars or have them aid you in combat. It simply means that they are a precious "gift" to wizards and sorcerors and if mistreated, there's a penalty is all. Those that fail to protect them and keep them safe pay a price for it. It's as simple as that here.
Animal Companions: while it is true that in PnP there is no XP penalty when a companion dies, players often overlook a long list of other things pertaining companions.
1) Rangers and druids gain a companion from their "home territories" only. Companions are gained as partly a divine gift and partly as a show of respect to the character by the woodland creatures they serve and protect.
2) Companions when first acquired are wild animals that at best follow the PC out of respect. They only attack to defend themselves and sometimes defend the PC they follow.
3) Time NOT adventuring must be spent to "train" a companion so it'll begin to obey specific commands over time. This can cause weeks if not months to pass IG so a companion can be a useful follower.
4) Though it only requires 24-48 hours of prayer to gain a companion ... uhm ... this needs be done in the woodsman's "home territory" and since it's a divine "gift", recieving a new companion after your old one perishes is never a "given". DMs would have to "grant" the new companion to the PC. That means reviewing the "why" each time as the woodsman's diety is unlikely to grant new companions on a regular basis to a character that does not actually respect them as companions and uses them as mere fodder in a fight constantly.
So lacking a painless and Non-DM required way to impliment the above, we choose here to also apply the same XP penalty as we did for familiars. XP after all is an obscure thing in D&D. It can be considered both a drain of life force when applied as a penalty due to a "wight" or "vampire" attack or as in item crafting represent "time" ... a "time" deduction in XP to represent the time a character must now spend in activities other than adventuring to accomplish a task. So the XP penalty for a companion's death here is used to represent the time and resources and divine involvement of replacing your previous creature is all. You don't have to return to your home woods. You don't have to beg a DM to intercede as a deity and grant you another. You don't have to retrain your new companion. You just take the penalty and move on here. Just as with other classes here, druids and rangers also have a variety of more useful woodland creatures that will answer a "summons" too.
So ... this was the "thought" process involved in adding the death penalties here. This was not mine or anothers mere whim either. Our core group of Admins, DMs, builders, scripters and players were all involved in setting these inplace. We actually started with a 250 xp per level penalty and overtime and testing and DM and player input have lowered it a few times to the current penalty of 100 XP per PC level.
My own mage and druid PCs here have suffered these penalties as much or more than most players. While I admit it "sucks" when it happens, it's also forced me to constantly rethink how I use companions/familiars IG here. In some cases I've adopted new tactics. In many instances I merely keep my "friends" safe and out of combat or simply don't travel with them when I know it'll be far too risky. Sometimes though, despite my best efforts ... "nuts happens". So I take the hit ... sigh and mutter alot ... and then move on.
So whether you all as players agree or disagree with our stance here, hopefully you at least understand the spirit in which these rules/penalties have been added here.
As always, your views and input are welcomed. Just know that in the past year we've yet to have been swayed from our views on this often "heated" topic.
-Kevin- AKA "kalbaern" and the ever evil "DM Fluffy Bunny of Doom"
