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Post by EndOfTheLine on Apr 28, 2015 10:59:54 GMT -5
This is sort of a continuation of the Lesser Planar Binding thread I made. If workload is a barrier then I offer to help out as much or as little as you want Kal.
I wanted to make the suggestion that the available summons in general be looked at as they are unbalanced with each other in my opinion. It diminishes variety in their usage if summons are made redundant by others. This post is not about trying to make summons more or less powerful in a general sense. It's about trying to make every summon available viable in some way / situation when compared with other summons available at the same level. If some summons are never used because they're made redundant by others then that's bad. It's equally as bad if a single summon is constantly being used because it's more useful than the others.
There are many things to consider when you're thinking about balancing summons.
Spell level of the summon.
Duration of the summon.
Tanking capability - HP, DR, AC, Regen, Crit Immunity.
Offensive capability - Damage, Attack.
Spells and utility usage. How do these work out in practice? AoE spells that can harm allies and the caster?
Buffs that the summon can benefit from such as keen / flame weapon.
Immunities, poisons, death magic, elements ect.
Alternate uses for the spell such as planar binding being used to stun planar creatures.
How many summon options does a spell give. For example the regular summon spells give access to a wide variety of summons for a single spell whereas planar and animate dead only give access to a single summon.
How versatile is the summon? As the animate dead summons can be changed between ranged and melee combat, that makes them more versatile.
**If you can think of something I haven't mentioned then add it to the thread. It might be useful for the designer(s) to consider.
The imbalances also effect familiars and animal companions. There are certain familiars and animal companions that just aren't worth taking and it's no surprise that they're never used. You could say that familiars aren't designed for battle and that's true however the fairy and pixie familiars have the utility benefit of being able to disarm traps and open locks. That puts them heads and heels over the others in usefulness terms. Other familiars have useful spells like imp invisibility for the faerie dragon but others have nothing so useful.
Ideally I would like every summon to be desirable in some way and have them all be comparable. If there's a summon option that we never use then maybe we should question why that is and how we can try to rectify it.
<3
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Post by kalbaern on Apr 28, 2015 12:14:35 GMT -5
This is sort of a continuation of the Lesser Planar Binding thread I made. If workload is a barrier then I offer to help out as much or as little as you want Kal. I wanted to make the suggestion that the available summons in general be looked at as they are unbalanced with each other in my opinion. It diminishes variety in their usage if summons are made redundant by others. This post is not about trying to make summons more or less powerful in a general sense. It's about trying to make every summon available viable in some way / situation when compared with other summons available at the same level. If some summons are never used because they're made redundant by others then that's bad. It's equally as bad if a single summon is constantly being used because it's more useful than the others. There are many things to consider when you're thinking about balancing summons. Spell level of the summon. Duration of the summon. Tanking capability - HP, DR, AC, Regen, Crit Immunity. Offensive capability - Damage, Attack. Spells and utility usage. How do these work out in practice? AoE spells that can harm allies and the caster? Buffs that the summon can benefit from such as keen / flame weapon. Immunities, poisons, death magic, elements ect. Alternate uses for the spell such as planar binding being used to stun planar creatures. How many summon options does a spell give. For example the regular summon spells give access to a wide variety of summons for a single spell whereas planar and animate dead only give access to a single summon. How versatile is the summon? As the animate dead summons can be changed between ranged and melee combat, that makes them more versatile. **If you can think of something I haven't mentioned then add it to the thread. It might be useful for the designer(s) to consider. The imbalances also effect familiars and animal companions. There are certain familiars and animal companions that just aren't worth taking and it's no surprise that they're never used. You could say that familiars aren't designed for battle and that's true however the fairy and pixie familiars have the utility benefit of being able to disarm traps and open locks. That puts them heads and heels over the others in usefulness terms. Other familiars have useful spells like imp invisibility for the faerie dragon but others have nothing so useful. Ideally I would like every summon to be desirable in some way and have them all be comparable. If there's a summon option that we never use then maybe we should question why that is and how we can try to rectify it. <3 Some of the familiars and companions are indeed poor choices, unless your choice is for RP, then they can be magnificent choices. My own Dwarven Ranger, Doirin, has as his companion a toad named Ruppert. I probably don't need to add, that Ruppert is pretty much worthless in any combat situations.  He however fits Doirin's role as a "Verminslayer", someone that specializes in killing bugs, rats, snakes, etc... or things Ruppert also enjoys eating.  I have a unique advantage of sorts though. I rarely ever log in and explore solo. I spend most of my free time, building and scripting, and normally only pop in late at night to explore with a few others in a small group. So I really don't -need- a familiar or companion that can hold its own in combat. That's me though, there are many others that do explore alone often. Familiars and companions are unlikely to become more powerful here. Whenever we next do a hak update, I might consider adding to the selections though. I'm open to suggestions. When it comes to summons, not all are meant to be equal, but there should be less disparity between different types as to how useful they are. These we can adjust and test as needed. Just outline suggestions and provide reasons for the changes and I'll look into it. |
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Post by EndOfTheLine on Apr 28, 2015 13:11:13 GMT -5
This is sort of a continuation of the Lesser Planar Binding thread I made. If workload is a barrier then I offer to help out as much or as little as you want Kal. I wanted to make the suggestion that the available summons in general be looked at as they are unbalanced with each other in my opinion. It diminishes variety in their usage if summons are made redundant by others. This post is not about trying to make summons more or less powerful in a general sense. It's about trying to make every summon available viable in some way / situation when compared with other summons available at the same level. If some summons are never used because they're made redundant by others then that's bad. It's equally as bad if a single summon is constantly being used because it's more useful than the others. There are many things to consider when you're thinking about balancing summons. Spell level of the summon. Duration of the summon. Tanking capability - HP, DR, AC, Regen, Crit Immunity. Offensive capability - Damage, Attack. Spells and utility usage. How do these work out in practice? AoE spells that can harm allies and the caster? Buffs that the summon can benefit from such as keen / flame weapon. Immunities, poisons, death magic, elements ect. Alternate uses for the spell such as planar binding being used to stun planar creatures. How many summon options does a spell give. For example the regular summon spells give access to a wide variety of summons for a single spell whereas planar and animate dead only give access to a single summon. How versatile is the summon? As the animate dead summons can be changed between ranged and melee combat, that makes them more versatile. **If you can think of something I haven't mentioned then add it to the thread. It might be useful for the designer(s) to consider. The imbalances also effect familiars and animal companions. There are certain familiars and animal companions that just aren't worth taking and it's no surprise that they're never used. You could say that familiars aren't designed for battle and that's true however the fairy and pixie familiars have the utility benefit of being able to disarm traps and open locks. That puts them heads and heels over the others in usefulness terms. Other familiars have useful spells like imp invisibility for the faerie dragon but others have nothing so useful. Ideally I would like every summon to be desirable in some way and have them all be comparable. If there's a summon option that we never use then maybe we should question why that is and how we can try to rectify it. <3 Some of the familiars and companions are indeed poor choices, unless your choice is for RP, then they can be magnificent choices. My own Dwarven Ranger, Doirin, has as his companion a toad named Ruppert. I probably don't need to add, that Ruppert is pretty much worthless in any combat situations. He however fits Doirin's role as a "Verminslayer", someone that specializes in killing bugs, rats, snakes, etc... or things Ruppert also enjoys eating. I have a unique advantage of sorts though. I rarely ever log in and explore solo. I spend most of my free time, building and scripting, and normally only pop in late at night to explore with a few others in a small group. So I really don't -need- a familiar or companion that can hold its own in combat. That's me though, there are many others that do explore alone often. Familiars and companions are unlikely to become more powerful here. Whenever we next do a hak update, I might consider adding to the selections though. I'm open to suggestions. When it comes to summons, not all are meant to be equal, but there should be less disparity between different types as to how useful they are. These we can adjust and test as needed. Just outline suggestions and provide reasons for the changes and I'll look into it. Different servers place different amount of importance on balance. Personally, I prefer things to be mechanically balanced as I think was the intention behind the design of D&D. If balance isn't a priority then that's fine however I feel it would add more variety to the summons/familiars used. Like you, I picked my familiar for roleplay reasons, I don't solo much and I don't use my familiar in combat, although I did at lower levels, except he kept dieing so I stopped. However power isn't just a measure of a familiars ability in combat and if we go by the rule that we don't use familiars in combat, that still doesn't put them completely out of the balance equation and the reason for that is utility. A familiar that can open locks and deal with traps is much more powerful than one that can't. The same goes for one that can cast improved invisibility, very useful for a character wanting to get out of danger. As I said, this is not a request for familiars or summons to become more powerful. It's a request for them to become more balanced compared to each other. Depending on how much power value you place on the utility functions of casting invisibility and dealing with traps/locks defines how much more powerful a fairy is over a toad. It's tricky for me to make suggestions because I only have access to the spells I have access to, it'd be a lot easier if the monster stats were available in a clearer way so I'll have to speak in general terms. At the moment I have access to planar binding, animate dead and summon circle 5 and the gargoyle from 5th circle seems to be the best tanking summon by far. The erinyes from planar binding has the bad habit of casting an AoE spell that hurts allies and she only lasts 5 rounds / level whereas the gargoyle lasts hour / level and the erinyes is comparatively weak compared to the gargoyle and the erinyes comes from a 6th circle spell whereas the gargoyle comes from a 5th. I'll take another look and suggest ways to balance 5th circle summons if I take a closer look over them. |
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Post by Avelent on Apr 30, 2015 11:05:31 GMT -5
Some Suggestions,
Familiars/companions are great fun for RP but IMO have been hindered and limited from their full potential. Too often do I see familiars used simply as a means to open or remove locks. They are often summoned when a need arises and than dismissed immediately afterwards. This is understandable because we do not want out precious friends to be harmed or die. The issue lies in their low quality of life and few reasons to use them but for dealing with traps/locks. Currently summoning them is a high risk low reward gambit that all to often I find myself just avoiding completely.
I purpose two suggestions to increase their quality of life and usefulness outside of combat so that players will find more reason to have them stick around for RP.
1. First, I suggest shared spells as per DnD rules. I have seen this used on other servers and enjoy it very much.
"Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. "
This increases our familiars survivability in combat. If I get close to my familiar and cast mage armor on myself we both get mage armor with one cast. This saves on limited spells, protects my familiar in combat, is do-able in nwns(has been done on some servers), and follows standard DnD rules.
2. Second, familiars should offer their master a small passive bonus while summoned. This also is in accordance with DnD rules, primarily is used for skill bonuses which can be great for RP, and gives players that added reason to have their familiar stick around.
Some examples from the 3.5 player handbook-
Bat - Master gains a +3 bonus on Listen checks
Cat - Master gains a +3 bonus on Move Silently checks
Hawk - Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in bright light
Lizard - Master gains a +3 bonus on Climb checks
Owl - Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadows
Rat - Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves
Raven - Master gains a +3 bonus on Appraise checks
Snake - Master gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks
Toad - Master gains +3 hit points
Wease - Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves
Additionally - Alertness (Ex) While a familiar is within arm’s reach, the master gains the Alertness feat. (+2 to spot and listen)
I believe that these changes would help foster more RP involving familiars while not making them combat machines or pocket rogues.
For your consideration,
-Avelent
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Post by kalbaern on Apr 30, 2015 17:19:21 GMT -5
While I generally agree with EndOfTheLine's last post, this part I don't quite agree with. In D&D, or rather PnP, there is often disparity between classes. In fact, overall it is the melee classes that are best level per level when you consider how they perform encounter after encounter. Casters can be the most powerful in any given instance, but due to spell durations and limits as to how often and how many spells per day they get, they really need to generally rely upon warrior classes to see them through in the long run. I will be reviewing our familiars and companions soon, but if any changes/tweaks/additions occur I'll discuss after the review and some thorough testing. Most other summoned creatures will be reviewed before them, with some tweaks for balancing along with some new options based upon class, alignment, deity or race added. Some Suggestions, Familiars/companions are great fun for RP but IMO have been hindered and limited from their full potential. Too often do I see familiars used simply as a means to open or remove locks. They are often summoned when a need arises and than dismissed immediately afterwards. This is understandable because we do not want out precious friends to be harmed or die. The issue lies in their low quality of life and few reasons to use them but for dealing with traps/locks. Currently summoning them is a high risk low reward gambit that all to often I find myself just avoiding completely. I purpose two suggestions to increase their quality of life and usefulness outside of combat so that players will find more reason to have them stick around for RP. 1. First, I suggest shared spells as per DnD rules. I have seen this used on other servers and enjoy it very much. "Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. " This increases our familiars survivability in combat. If I get close to my familiar and cast mage armor on myself we both get mage armor with one cast. This saves on limited spells, protects my familiar in combat, is do-able in nwns(has been done on some servers), and follows standard DnD rules. 2. Second, familiars should offer their master a small passive bonus while summoned. This also is in accordance with DnD rules, primarily is used for skill bonuses which can be great for RP, and gives players that added reason to have their familiar stick around. Some examples from the 3.5 player handbook- Bat - Master gains a +3 bonus on Listen checks Cat - Master gains a +3 bonus on Move Silently checks Hawk - Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in bright light Lizard - Master gains a +3 bonus on Climb checks Owl - Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadows Rat - Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves Raven - Master gains a +3 bonus on Appraise checks Snake - Master gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks Toad - Master gains +3 hit points Wease - Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves Additionally - Alertness (Ex) While a familiar is within arm’s reach, the master gains the Alertness feat. (+2 to spot and listen) I believe that these changes would help foster more RP involving familiars while not making them combat machines or pocket rogues. For your consideration, -Avelent Every year or so, spell sharing is suggested. While it is a PnP feature, how it works in PnP isn't really something the mechanics allow in NWN. Depending on the spell shared, the familiar/companion needs to be within 5' or arms length for small creatures, but ... they also lose the effects of the sharing as soon as they exceed that maximum distance. Just having a creature follow it is hard to maintain that spacing IG. Even if a bit liberal with the distance, transitioning might break the effects as would the follower getting stuck on terrain. We'd also need to run a psuedoheartbeat every second or so to check distance between the creature and its master and remove effects. Do to the fact that followers actually proceed the master when transitioning, most shared buffs would under optimal conditions rarely last past the first area or map. Then, there's the poor IG mechanics in general and followers wanting to run chase after everything you wander past constantly which would break the effects. Sure, we -could- just ignore ignore the PnP distance requirement, but ... that would become very unbalancing itself. It would turn familiars and companions back into extra meatshields, which is something we've really tried to avoid here. We purposely beefed up most summons so folks wouldn't need to use familiars/companions as such. Also keep in mind the real PnP penalties when you lose a familiar or companion. Here, its just a minor XP hit. In PnP, weeks, months or even years could pass before you could gain a replacement and in the case of companions, your deity may or may not grant you another without atonement or a quest, especially if it died due to misusing it. Additionally, companions, even when replaced quicker than familiars, which can take a year or more, they need to be trained by their master for a period that can last months too years, depending on the commands it learns to obey. Anyhow, I will be looking for other ways to make familiars and companions more diverse. |
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Post by Avelent on Apr 30, 2015 19:38:53 GMT -5
Another thought ^_^
Well that would be great if -some- kind of change or addition to familiars could be made because as is they are currently pocket rogues and/or xp drains. If my familiar is an imp for example, I can't summon it in town cus it will freak people out and I also can't summon it in a dungeon cus it will die @_@. I basically can only use it as a RP buddy while walking between dungeons -once- a day or until I rest again.
Here is a crazy idea! ^_^ what if we could toggle to make our familiar immune to damage, un-targetable and unable to attack. That way I can safely have it around all the time in a dungeon to RP with but never have to worry about it dying and it can't be abused as a meat-shield. I really don't mind so much if I have a useless familiar as long as I can keep it around to RP with and not worry about it dying.
-Avelent
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Post by EndOfTheLine on May 13, 2015 3:20:49 GMT -5
I initially picked the Raven animal companion for my druid but it had 1 hit point so I swapped it out for a Hawk on the next level. My suggestion is to improve the Raven to bring it in line with the standard Raven familiar. |
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He however fits Doirin's role as a "Verminslayer", someone that specializes in killing bugs, rats, snakes, etc... or things Ruppert also enjoys eating. 
I have a unique advantage of sorts though. I rarely ever log in and explore solo. I spend most of my free time, building and scripting, and normally only pop in late at night to explore with a few others in a small group. So I really don't -need- a familiar or companion that can hold its own in combat. That's me though, there are many others that do explore alone often.
