Lawful Rogues

[Weasel War Dance]

I understand the rule behind restricting rogues from being lawful. The nature and art of backstabbing is rarely seen as an orthodox combat technique. However, halfling's as a whole are considered Lawful, in the same manner that elves are considered Chaotic. The pantheon of Halflings is almost entirely lawful, and their favored class is Rogue.

To prevent halflings from having lawful rogues I think would be the same as saying that Elven Wizards cannot be chaotic.

[Possibly Ten]

Oct 26, 2009 7:12:53 GMT -5 Weasel War Dance said:

I understand the rule behind restricting rogues from being lawful. The nature and art of backstabbing is rarely seen as an orthodox combat technique. However, halfling's as a whole are considered Lawful, in the same manner that elves are considered Chaotic. The pantheon of Halflings is almost entirely lawful, and their favored class is Rogue.

To prevent halflings from having lawful rogues I think would be the same as saying that Elven Wizards cannot be chaotic.

Reminds me to get back to work on the hin pantheon. And I could honestly see/support Lawful rogues being Halfling only here. It does make sense due to the sources, and how halflings normally are. Doesn't mean it will happen though.

[kalbaern]

Oct 26, 2009 7:12:53 GMT -5 Weasel War Dance said:

I understand the rule behind restricting rogues from being lawful. The nature and art of backstabbing is rarely seen as an orthodox combat technique. However, halfling's as a whole are considered Lawful, in the same manner that elves are considered Chaotic. The pantheon of Halflings is almost entirely lawful, and their favored class is Rogue.

To prevent halflings from having lawful rogues I think would be the same as saying that Elven Wizards cannot be chaotic.

Saddly the preferred classes rarely match the race or subrace in NWN. If they did Halflings would be remade into "Hins" and not portrayed moreso as the Dragon Lance "kenders" in the game engine. We'd also have Woodelves with a preference to be rangers and not mages. Also, aside from their devoted clerics, there's no references stating that halflings are by nature lawful. I've personally always viewed the lawful halflings as the "Cat Herders" trying to keep a modicum of order in a society prone to wandering and insatiable curiousity.

Infact the FR Player's Source Book has this to say:
"Lightfoot halflings may be the most common of all the subraces, but their behavior is also the most varied. It’s impossible to describe the “typical” lightfoot halfling because, much like humans, the race embodies individuals that are the absolute antithesis of one another. This diversity of behavior is mirrored in a diversity of outlooks: Some halflings adopt views and beliefs about the world that are very close or even identical to whatever human community they happen to dwell in, while others retain distinctive points of view that separate them from other races and groups (including other halflings). It’s not uncommon to meet halflings who, because they spend the greater part of their lives roaming from place to place, have outlooks that are amalgams of those from multiple cultures and environments."

The FRCS also lists Lurien's predominate alignments as LG, NG and N so I would think overall that Hin's have a tendancey to being neutral over being lawful.

To specifically address the rogues though whether halfling or not, all of the rogues most useful skills excepting UMD (And bards get UMD and cannot be lawful either) can be cross classed. (Yes, I know ... never enough skill points as it is and those cost 2 points each) This leaves the true masters of locks and traps as rogues usually. Unless you're a full time "lock and trap smith" and hence not an adventurer but rather an NPC, there's few arguements for having lawful rogues.

We could simply add a bunch of complicated rules and say no pick pocketting if you're a lawful rogue. No house breaking if you're a lawful rogue. No setting traps in any but an enemy's lair if you're a lawful rogue. But, to do that we'd be also forcing our DMs into the role of "server cops". I can assure you the abuses would be plenty, with some intentional and some "Oooops's". So rather than burden our staff with the need to oversee such constantly, we've chosen to simply not allow lawful rogues. Lawful rogues in the end are as rare as chaotic good sunlight loving drow afterall.

Though it may sometimes seem otherwise, the DMs here don't go through every PCs character sheet looking for mistakes or rules violations. We do point out such to players when they are spotted, but that's never our motivation either. When we spot them, it's usually because we were taking a close look at the character to better give them a challenge during an outing or prepare a quest or even see what type of "reward" would best suit their character because they've impressed us with their RP. Hence many small things in builds slip through the cracks for a time. Allowing lawful rogues would therefore make the DMs have to constantly check character sheets to single out rogues and then further keep an eye on the "lawful" ones. In the end it'd just waste time that DMs need to help new players and run events. It'd also be a drudging task and we'd be hard pressed to keep or recruit DMs.

[Weasel War Dance]

I understand the difficulties of policing the server and it is unfortunate that more cannot be done.

Unfortunately, this rule disables the paladin orders of Arvoreen and Monks of the Hin-Fist. I've always preferred the Lurien hins to the traditional 'kender' halflings, but I have seen enough random hins and gnomes to understand the precident. Thank you for your time.

[kalbaern]

Oct 26, 2009 16:38:14 GMT -5 Weasel War Dance said:

I understand the difficulties of policing the server and it is unfortunate that more cannot be done.

Unfortunately, this rule disables the paladin orders of Arvoreen and Monks of the Hin-Fist. I've always preferred the Lurien hins to the traditional 'kender' halflings, but I have seen enough random hins and gnomes to understand the precident. Thank you for your time.

Hin Fist Monks we allow, though they must begin as paladins (halflings only as well) and then may become monks and only progress as monks from that point on. The Hin Fist also admits Halflings, Gnomes and Dwarves here and they can all multiclass as Monk/Fighter so long as their monk levels always equal or exceed their other classes.

As for a paladin order for Avoreen ... the FRCS didn't show one. Have you a sourced reference for them?

[700c]

Oct 26, 2009 21:36:58 GMT -5 kalbaern said:

Oct 26, 2009 16:38:14 GMT -5 Weasel War Dance said:

I understand the difficulties of policing the server and it is unfortunate that more cannot be done.

Unfortunately, this rule disables the paladin orders of Arvoreen and Monks of the Hin-Fist. I've always preferred the Lurien hins to the traditional 'kender' halflings, but I have seen enough random hins and gnomes to understand the precident. Thank you for your time.

Hin Fist Monks we allow, though they must begin as paladins (halflings only as well) and then may become monks and only progress as monks from that point on. The Hin Fist also admits Halflings, Gnomes and Dwarves here and they can all multiclass as Monk/Fighter so long as their monk levels always equal or exceed their other classes.

As for a paladin order for Avoreen ... the FRCS didn't show one. Have you a sourced reference for them?

From Diety Do's and Dont's, Paladin Orders. (pg7):

Arvoreen’s Marchers: cleric, fighter, rogue. An order in
Tethyr recognized by the crown, they are highly respect-
ed by local humans and halflings alike. Their chapter-
house is called Keeperstone.

Oh, hello to all btw.

[kalbaern]

Thanks, I always forget about "Diety Do's and Dont's".

These orders can still be used, just not with the rogue class as an option though.

If and when I've the time and a low impact way can be created to enforce some of our lawful/rogue concerns, we'll gladdly revisit this topic. but, we've guilds, NPCs, stores (lots) and hundreds of new areas to get inplace prior.