Ranger Suggestions

[crediblethreat]

After finally getting my pure Ranger Turiq to Epic, I'd like to make a few suggestions for aiding the much-maligned class.  Nothing really unorthodox, just a few more moves toward the 3.5 Ranger.  Firstly, while the ranger custom summoning spells really help make what is generally a pretty poor spell selection useful for utility, Rangers really have very little by way of offensive or defensive spells, and perhaps rightfully so, since Rangers are a full AB class, but adding Barkskin to the spell list per the 3.5 Ranger would go a long way toward helping their characteristic 'self-sufficiency'.  The foraging here creates a great way to emulate some of the other 3.5 Ranger utility spells, like Slow Poison, etc, but doesn't address that defensive need.  My thought is that with barkskin added, more players might choose the 'pure ranger' path instead of readily opting for a rogue mix for the Tumble and Uncanny Dodge.  In that same vein, Evasion at level 9 (per 3.5) or perhaps later encouraging the commitment might be a worthwhile addition.  Endurance as a class spell would fit, as well, but with the d10 hitpoints instead of d8, that's sorta covered and getting disable trap as a class skill addresses the increased skill points reasonably.  

The other thought I had isn't in regard to the 3.5 Ranger but more just addressing a balance issue arising from changes to True Seeing.  The iconic Ranger should be the class with the highest Spot, as they are, generally, the 'hunter class', but True Seeing and Clairvoyance easily allow Wizards or Clerics to exceed even a higher level Ranger's maxxed Spot.  Additionally, its always been my experience that Stealth gear always exceeds Detection gear.  So what I would suggest is maybe adding Clairvoyance to the Ranger spell list, or, better still, a customized Ranger Spell "Eagle's Eye" to address that.  The spell could be easily tweaked for balance, either making it give a relatively low bonus and making it a first level spell, or, even better, in my opinion, the spell giving a heartier Spot and maybe even Search bonus akin True Seeing but with a slower progression but only functioning in wilderness areas.

I welcome any input, questions or redneck jokes.  Ranger has always been a beloved class for me, ripe with Role-Playing flavor despite perhaps having mechanical limitations in translation to the computer game medium and seek only to keep it rich in spirit.

[shroud]

Bladethirst could use a boost, 2 rounds per level on only slashing weapons is kinda sucky. Thanks NWN

[justicedragon]

*cough* Spiderskin *cough*

[Avelent]

Casters can do -everything- ^_^ That's basically how it is and yes, often better than other classes.

Here is a link to a popular opinion that is widely excepted about 3.5, The tier system.

brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf44e&topic=5293

While I don't like it and wish there was balance this is basically how the classes in D&D work. As you can see from the list a wizard is tier one and ranger is only a tier 4 out of 6 possible tiers. Rangers just are not very good.

Sense it's a game about RP often balance is not important and does not matter though I feel your pain.

I too wish for balance and agree that rangers should have the best spot and having more AC from bark skin would be welcome sense they can only wear light armor pretty much. Also they don't have much offense, I agree.

Any who, I support your post. But, if it doesn't get changed meh, That's D&D for ya. Its a very unbalanced game with a tier system where some classes suck and others are super super strong.

[shroud]

May 11, 2015 23:04:37 GMT -5 Avelent said:

I too wish for balance and agree that rangers should have the best spot and having more AC from bark skin would be welcome sense they can only wear light armor pretty much. Also they don't have much offense, I agree.

Any who, I support your post. But, if it doesn't get changed meh, That's D&D for ya. Its a very unbalanced game with a tier system where some classes suck and others are super super strong.

I'll disagree about the offense. I don't think offense is the ranger's downfall. I actually think attack/damage is the advance of being a ranger, especially when Epic levels are possible. Things to remember

-You get 3 "free" dual wielding feats as a ranger. That is 6 attacks per round
-You can dual wield while having a low dexterity, high strength. (Damage!)
-You get damage bonus and taunt bonus to favored enemies (taunt can increase your AB by up to 6). More favored enemies you have, greater the bonus. (+5 at lvl 20)
-Access to one of the most powerful feats: Bane of Enemies. (+2 attack bonus, and +2d6 dmg)

Rangers can usually pick archery or dual wield as options, in NWN it's kind of forced onto you to be a dual wielder in order to best take advantage of the class.

Where rangers are generally weak is:

Spell casting: (They're a full BAB class, so can't complain TOO much, but they have such limited spells per day, having one that does something is good. I especially like the Longstrider spell that was added)
Defense: They lack the feats of the fighter and to take advantage of their own feats, they need to wear light armor. They don't have the damage reduction of a barbarian, or the spells of a bard. They don't get sneak attacks as a rogue to only get away with dexterity (unless you want to suffer low damage). 

Suggested changes:
Add barkskin (that by itself will put this class WAY higher then it is now)
Change blade thirst to Turns/lvl instead of round. (and allow it to affect piercing weapons too)

[DM Disaster]

//As you can see from the list a wizard is tier one and ranger is only a tier 4 out of 6 possible tiers. Rangers just are not very good.//

My favorite character to play as a PC is a ranger. If you practice with the character and get to know what he or she can do and how to put all their myriad skills together, I think they're the most versatile and capable class in the game. You just have to take the time to get good at putting their skills together in an approach that will work well. No matter the type of foe, a clever ranger can find a weakness to exploit and make the enemy pay for having it.

And put them together into a party so they don't have to cover all roles at once ... yeah. Awesome class.

[EndOfTheLine]

All personal opinions:

The suggestions seem pretty good as long as the changes are properly tested and balanced. I do prefer the 3.5 ranger over nwns implementation and rewarding commitment to a class is good. Tossing in a few rogue lvls into a build in nwn can often make it much better but if the game was truly balanced then commitment to a class should come with its own rewards too. This is actually the case with almost all the classes.

Caster all have obvious benefits when they're committed, no problem there.
Barbarian gets DR and better rage abilities for committing, no problem there.
Rogues... no problem there.
Ranger doesn't quite have enough to tempt committing in vanilla nwn imo and your changes would help to fix that.

There is one class that truely suffers and that's the fighter. If you commit to the fighter class then you're selling yourself short. Fighter is used in NwN to get access to other classes or 4 levels are taken for extra attacks per round and weapon specialization. Going beyond 4th fighter lvl is to get feat requirements for other classes. Fighter is also made almost utterly redundant by the Champion of Torm which is a fighter and then some in almost every respect. Fighter does have more going for it in PnP because of all the supplement books that grant spiffy combat feats that the fighter can collect and use. There aren't really enough feats for a high level fighter to pick from in nwn. So, in my opinion there should be some sort of added benefit/incentive that starts to kick in at higher fighter levels. These benefits could be one of many things, perhaps new combat feats or sticking with the general and flexible nature of the class the player could be given a choice of what aspect of their fighter is improved. Perhaps a gradual AC increase for defensive fighters or an AB increase for offensive fighter. It's effectiveness and usefulness should be comparable in power terms yet mechanically different from the benefits granted by the COT class.

[crediblethreat]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their input and consideration on this topic. I, by no means, wish to discourage additional discussion, but I do feel compelled to ask for a bit of a re-direct to the original topic. My intent was solely to try to make the Ranger class more rewarding to play. Balance issues between all classes is beyond the scope of my intent. (Though I find I do truly agree that fighters could use some love.) As an unabashed fan of the Ranger class, particularly the archetypal 'solitary wanderer', I think the two changes I explicitly suggested (Barkskin and a spot-enhancing spell), coupled with the already implemented ranger/druid augmentations here, would make the class richer and more rewarding. Evasion, while I think a good argument could be made for it as well, in my opinion, moves more into the scope of 'larger argument'. (Though for purely selfish reasons I wouldn't oppose its addition or, at the least, disabling point-blank boulder tossing but I think that would be very difficult mechanically.)

[justicedragon]

I wouldn't mind some Defensive Awareness- like bonus added to a ranger wearing light or no armor. In addition to barkskin, how about spider skin as well? I'm Pro- bonuses for Ranger, maybe since they only get up to 4th lvl spells, cast them extended? (I'm also Pro- long polymorph)

Tumble would be nice.

[DM Disaster]

May 28, 2015 5:40:36 GMT -5 crediblethreat said:

 As an unabashed fan of the Ranger class, particularly the archetypal 'solitary wanderer', I think the two changes I explicitly suggested (Barkskin and a spot-enhancing spell), coupled with the already implemented ranger/druid augmentations here, would make the class richer and more rewarding. Evasion, while I think a good argument could be made for it as well, in my opinion, moves more into the scope of 'larger argument'. (Though for purely selfish reasons I wouldn't oppose its addition or, at the least, disabling point-blank boulder tossing but I think that would be very difficult mechanically.)

I think a spot enhancement would work well, or perhaps a listen enhancement, so it would have potential to kind of sneak around invisibility by way of hearing, at least at close range.  I can see the argument for barkskin, but I also think it's good to leave that spell under the sole auspices of actual casters.  While I think it's great to try to even up power levels between classes, and I think barkskin makes sense as a nature oriented spell, my personal opinion is that it would be better to bring in things that don't necessarily make the class more powerful, but give abilities that are more unique to the ranger and which no other class can do.  (Such as a listen enhancement.)  I mean, a ranger is it's own class.  It's not a fighter/rogue/druid multiclass.  I'd like to see it have, if anything, more of its own set of unique skills, as I honestly would for any class.

[Snubletraad]

On another PW (FRMD) created by Ainur, we had a tracking tool that, when used, would tell the player what monsters or other Pc's were in that specific area. Detecting other PCs was a spot/listen vs. hide/move silently roll.

It would also tell which general direction they could be found. Can't remember if distance was there as well... like short/medium/long distance away.

A simple tool, but with soooo many rp uses.

[crediblethreat]

Yeah, I played on Myth Drannor for a while, myself. Never played a Ranger there, however. Barkskin was forwarded as its a 3.5 Ranger Spell.